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  • Learn the meaning of this word....


    Try google or snopes.

    I'm no racist, but am a Christian and have two daughters.

    Enuff said, time to open our eyes and learn about the world around us.

    "No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation." -- General Douglas MacArthur

    "Liberty without learning is always in peril and learning without liberty is always in vain." -- John F. Kennedy

    "Personal responsibility is the price of liberty." -- Michael Cloud

    "Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you." -- Pericles, 430 B.C.

  • #2

    Chilling.....I have a hard time understanding why people would go along with any religeon without listening to their gut(God given instinct). Maybe because I was raised in a free land.....when we truly were free.
    It seems our nation has become a land of jellyfish brained zombies- all in the name of diversity and being politically correct.
    I don't know Brett....we shall see. One site fact check org says the Muslim faith does not forbid purchasing health insurance.
    Sounds like they are trying to chip away anyway they can though.


    • #3


      Islam is a truly evil practice, I dont even call it a religion, and it can hardly be called a 'religion of peace' considering how many billions of them view conquest by the sword to be beneficial to the world.

      Some uninformed will protest loudly at the following, but; allah is not and never was a name for God, its the name of the babylonian demon of the desert. If we look closely where he is worshipped that land is a growing desert, even Indonesia has rapidly expanding wasteland. Very rapidly. Malaysia also.

      Mohammed dictated the Koran over a 40 year period to scribes, many different ones, no rhyme or reason in its layout. Part of that is because the scribes just entered what he said without correlating it to anything else. Its the most chaotic book I have ever read/studied. Part of that is due to the last 16 years of his life when he was dying of syphilis. That is why Salmon Rusdie had a death warrant(Fatwa) put on him as he quoted several verses from that part of M's life and titled it 'The Satanic Verses'.

      M was a pedaphile,and okayed that as he did beating wives and honor killing for any woman suspected of 'dishonoring' family, or islam. Thousands die every year because of this. Or more.

      Christians have been driven out of PLO controlled Bethlehem, or murdered and the families driven out, early in the 20th Century Turkey massacred over a million, some say two million Christian Armenians. Hitler later studied this and based his death camps from that as the 'world' never objected seriously to it, and still hasnt.

      Nuff, anyone who wants to contest any of what I have written I will be happy to respond, either by PM or here. I have lived in parts of Israel with close muslim neighbors and know firsthand their bloodthirstiness.
      Jake Levi
      Oswego, NY

      We are all in this together


      • #4


        For those who do not wish to search this word out yourselves, I’ll give you some background on it. The term, “dhimmitude” is a word used to describe an attitude of concession or conciliation to Muslim people. The root of the word “dhimmi,” an Arabic adjective literally meaning “protected”. It was first coined by Bachir Gemayel, the Lebanese president in 1982 as he decried attempts by Muslim leadership to subjugate Christians in Lebanon. Therefore, a representation of the current meaning of the word is perhaps ‘giving in to Muslim demands,’ but more accurately represents the protected status of certain classes of non-Muslim individuals under sharia law.
        For further understanding, I’ll point now to the term “religion” as it seems to have popped up in this thread already. This word has many meanings, yet they are all related. A religion includes a set of beliefs, a religious person follows a series of rules related to personal or collective convictions. A religious behavior is one that follows a devoted path and may not have anything to do with belief in a supernatural being. For example, one could eat Twinkies religiously, or one could murder dogs with religious fervor. The function of religion is an extension of the belief and devotion of the individual. So Jake in denying Islam is a religion actually confirms it to be so as he calls it an evil practice, where religion can encompass any persistent or devoted practice.

        Islam is, indeed, a religion. It is practiced by millions of people worldwide. Most of them are not violent. There are somewhere around 2 million Muslims in the United States, and only a fraction of them have emerged as violent individuals. Similarly, a fraction of Christians regularly emerge as violent individuals, many of them claiming to do God’s work in their actions. Mainstream Christians dispute the validity of their claims, naturally, yet the non-Christian world perceives a Christian militant as a Christian militant and issues of sect are rarely discussed. This is not all that different from the Western world’s description of Muslim militants as simply Muslim militants. The problem is not in the religion, but in the interpretation of the religion. When a single element of any religious writing is exaggerated and promoted by people who have an extreme view of the particular situation. For example, the rantings of Westboro Baptist Church are the extracts of a few key elements separated from the Bible and exaggerated to allow that church the divine authority it requires to make the judgments it makes.

        Jake, I’ve researched your allegation on the name of Allah and I find it baseless. The description only appears in extremist websites devoted to the dissolution of Islam as a religion. Incidentally, I can also find many anti-Semitic websites that gives creative descriptive terms and definitions for Jewish core beliefs. The use of such terms is inexcusable in polite society.

        Ruth, our nation was founded by people who preferred to make their own choices regarding God, religion, faith, and belief. Many of our founders were not strictly Christian, hence the desire to break away from the Church of England. It would be a travesty to say now that we only want Christians in our nation, and a further travesty to conclude that only Christians are allowed to run the government. This nation is here for the masses, not just people who believe like you do. We would truly be a nation of “jellyfish brained zombies” if we gave in to you and your comrades and cast away anyone who doesn’t believe in the same God you believe in. Make no mistake, America is a land populated by immigrants. Even the indigenous people came here from somewhere else. No one race, no one religion, no one isolationist group can claim ownership. It’s here for all of us.

        FB, it doesn’t matter if you are Christian and have two daughters. Hate is hate, no matter your reason. Your hate is borne of fear because you are afraid your two daughters will have to live under sharia law. You fear what you don’t understand, you don’t understand because you don’t ask questions, you don’t look around, you don’t see the world as something distinct and different from your own corner of Texas, yet you want us to learn about the world around us? The world has been happening for a lot of years, if you are not aware of it yet, it is too late for you.

        You talk about Christianity and Freedom as if they are the same thing, yet you don’t understand history. This nation was founded by people who wanted liberty from their Christian overlords. It was first colonized at a time when the leaders of the Christian churches held more power than the governments. The Puritans were actually exiles from the Church of England. If you want to be truly free, you will not look to Christianity to run your government. This is why the concept of separation of church and state was added to the Bill of Rights. It wasn’t to protect your right to be a Christian, it was to protect the rest of the nation from Christian rule.

        You aren’t kidding anyone with that “I’m not a racist” comment. Racism exists in every human capable of thinking. How you handle your own racism is what makes the difference. If you deny it, you allow it to fester un-checked. If you feed it, you give in to hatred based on baseless criteria. If you recognize it and suppress it, you learn from it but you don’t let it control you. That you have two daughters is an irrelevant excuse for being a racist. The truth is, you let it control you and you let it make your decisions for you.

        The nation of Islam isn’t composed of saints, and their origins might be a little shady at times, but look at the origins of Christianity and ask if you are any better. Consider this, Easter traditions were imported into Christianity to appease the Northern European pagans. They kept their fertility rites, their symbolism remains today in the form of the little bunny rabbit and the Easter egg. How many other traditions and beliefs have origins you would be ashamed of?

        It isn’t where it came from that matters, what matters is what is in your heart and how you treat other people. If you judge people with hatred and fear, you will receive that same judgment from your creator. It says so in your Bible. Mat 7:1.

        Your ego-centric views of YOUR way of life will be your undoing. While you stagnate, the world surpasses you. Your daughters have much greater challenges in life than the nation of Islam encroaching.

        If you think I’m a jellyfish brained zombie because I support diversity, think again. I believe diversity is our strength and the strength of our nation is in how it changes to face new challenges. I am a believer and a Christian, but I know my faith is mine and mine alone. I don’t want any government telling me what to believe, where to go to church, and what time I have to pray. As much as you are fighting for a Christian nation, I am fighting to keep the government out of my religion and my religion out of the government. They are distinct entities that cannot rule effectively together, though one can borrow ideas and methods from the other.
        Last edited by DrCreosote; 08-03-2010, 05:15 PM. Reason: formatting
        Sean Stephens



        • #5


          We have to agree to disagree.

          You have a classic world view of Islam, from a liberal viewpoint, with absolutely no practical experience with it.

          I am Jewish, also an Israeli as well as American, I have lived among and next door literally to Israeli Arabs, I have all too much of practical experience with them. On Fridays I hear the mullahs calling from the mosques 'Ichbar Yudi', Kill the Jews, and compliantly they do.

          Your ignorance of the koran is vast. Near total. It calls for islam to be the dominant world religion, and all infidels converted or forced to submission, that is what a dhimmi is, who pays a tax. I have many friends from arab countries who have lived under that status, a pity you dont know their horror stories, or havent experienced them. FYI its a status for all non muslims, that includes you. Believe me, you wont like it, or for your women folk either.

          There are over a billion muslims on the planet, by definition a muslim is one who believes in and subscribes to'islam', the way. That includes ALL the precepts, including as a basic tenet world wide sharia. NO country that is based on Sharia has anything remotely like western views of diversity. There are only muslims and a very few dhimmi, those who havent managed to flee.

          Some , as saudi arabia YOU are not allowed to visit freely or to live there, so much for islamic diversity. That is an oxymoron. An extreme oxymoron.

          I can go on for hours, literally. This could be food for thought. I doubt it will be.

          You are so open minded that your brains have fallen out.

          BTW, I served in the Yom Kippur War, and my life was saved by two Beduin Sgts who shot one of a group of Egyptian soldiers our unit had gathered up five days after the cease fire, while they were scarfing our food and water one pulled a sub machine gun out of his coat and shot four of us. The driver and radio man were killed, and two of us seriously wounded. As the shooter was dying he shouted alluah akbar I have killed Jews! His mullah had sent him off to war with a command to kill a Jew no matter what. He did while we were saving his life.

          Google books by Brigitte Gabriel, one especially , " Because they Hate", if you really want to learn what hate is. She is a Lebanese Christian who fled the muslims in Lebanon who hated her, and her cowering family. Its the same hate that led the Turks to massacre over a million Armenian Christians, and arabs in Bethlehem to kill or drive out Christians there, and all Christians in Gaza. They all follow the same koran and same prophet of hate. And they all would prefer to see you dead and not a one would stand by and speak up for you.

          BTW, my two Beduin friends and their entire clan who lived in Hebron were murdered by neighbors who objected to their own level of diversity which included serving with the IDF. Over 70 people in that clan died for their 'crime'.

          Want me to continue? I'm not.

          You'd best stick to writing about things in which you have a LOT more experience. And knowledge. Not liberal cant.
          Jake Levi
          Oswego, NY

          We are all in this together


          • #6

            It's because I believe in diversity and freedom of religion that I am very wary of Islam. I do believe if Islam got a strong foothold here and that we responded the way the rest of Europe has responded to the leaders of their Islamic immigrants, then freedom of religion and diversity will go out the window.

            I think Jake's experiences should be food for thought. In places where Islam is the dominate cultural and political force, the general populations suffer. Not of course the mullahs or the politician but the everyday people, with women bearing the greatest brunt.

            Has anyone read the latest Time article about Afghanistan? It is chilling to say the least. Here is the link, and a link where the editor defends the magazine's decision to run it.

            Afghan Women Fear Their Fate Amid Taliban Negotiations - TIME

            Time Editor Rick Stengel on Controversial Afghanistan Cover - Political Hotsheet - CBS News


            • #7

              Islam, the truth

              An Explosive Issue
              Prof. Paul Eidelberg
              August 3, 2010

              Unlike such intellectual giants as Maimonides and Thomas Aquinas, few commentators dare say that Islam, regardless of what may be said of its virtues and historical accomplishments, is inherently a malicious and destructive creed at war with individual freedom and human dignity.

              Islam has declared war against Israel and America, respectively the source and guardian of Western civilization. While Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad proclaims "Death to America" and vows to "wipe Israel off the map," Islam remains untouchable.

              Even though Muslims predominate among terrorists, apologists would have us believe that these Muslims have “hijacked” Islam, a religion of peace. Meanwhile, other commentators, to avoid disparaging Islam per se, speak of “Islamism,” “militant Islam,” “political Islam,” “radical Islam,” etc.

              Still, a truth-seeker would like to understand the difference between “Islam” and “Islamism.” Isn’t Islam an “ism” as much as Islamism? Isn't it strange that some commentators speak of “radical Islamists”? What is the difference between “Islamists” and “radical Islamists”? Besides, since Jihad is the most distinctive principle of Islam and Islamic history, doesn't this same principle animate Islamism, militant Islam, and political Islam? Perhaps some data about Islamic scriptures will clarify this explosive issue?

              Consider the findings of a monumental study of the Islamic Trilogy, the Quran, the Hadith, and the Sira published in 2007. (Note: whereas the Hadith consists of Islam’s oral traditions, the Sira consists of biographies of Muhammad used to develop the Hadith and Muslim Law, Sharia.) The study was made by Bill Warner, director of the Center for the Study of Political Islam:[i]

              ● Of more than 153,000 words in the Quran, only 4,018 or 2.6 percent seem to express goodness to humanity, qualified, however, by obedience to Muhammad.

              ● The words of Allah are only about 17 percent of the Islamic Trilogy, but the words and actions of Muhammad comprise 83 percent of the Trilogy.

              ● About 20 percent of the most authoritative school of the Hadith is about Jihad.

              ● At least 75 percent of the Sira is about Jihad.

              ● There are 146 references to hell in the Quran, only 6 percent of which concern moral failings such as murder and theft. The other 94 percent of the reasons for being in Hell are for the intellectual sin of disagreeing with Muhammad, a political crime.

              No public official dares say that Islam is the greatest threat to Western civilization. (Apart from risking his life, he might be indicted for a hate crime.) True, it is known and admitted that Islam has enslaved countless women. It has also been reported that since the time of Muhammad, Muslims have slaughtered 270 million human beings![ii] Nevertheless, while the Quran calls infidels dogs and pigs, Islam remains a sacred cow.

              This said, I invite the reader to peruse an article published by the Freeman Center for Strategic Studies on this day of August 3, 2010.

              Jewish World Review August 3, 2010

              "None Dare Call It . . . What?"
              By Cal Thomas

              Former Speaker Newt Gingrich may be the most notable public figure in some time to state the obvious: radical Islam is a clear and present danger to America (emphasis added, PE).

              In a speech last week at The American Enterprise Institute in Washington, Gingrich said, "this is not a war on terrorism … this is a struggle with radical Islamists" (emphasis added, PE). The problem, he said, is that too many leaders are "sleepwalking" and won't face the threat.

              Ask yourself: if you wanted to infiltrate a country, wouldn't a grand strategy be to rapidly build mosques from Ground Zero in New York, to Temecula, Calif., and establish beachheads so fanatics could plan and advance their strategies under the cover of religious freedom and that great American virtue known as "tolerance," which is being used against us?

              The best people to consult on such matters are those with the life experiences and knowledge to credibly comment on the subject. After all, we can't expect those who wish to destroy us to tell the truth, can we?

              Except that they do tell it by their words and deeds throughout much of the world. The problem isn't that they're not telling. The problem is that too many are imprisoned in denial.

              One such expert is Yoram Ettinger a former Israeli diplomat and current commentator. He comments on Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons and the West's feckless response through meaningless sanctions and empty rhetoric, Ettinger writes: "Western policy-makers grow increasingly reconciled to co-existence with a nuclear Iran. They assume that, notwithstanding the radical rhetoric, the Iranian leadership is pragmatic, cognizant of its limitations, unwilling to expose its people to devastating Western retaliation and considering nuclear capabilities as a tool of deterrence -- and not as an offensive weapon -- against the U.S., NATO and Israel.

              "However, a nuclear Iran would constitute a clear and present danger to global security and peace, which must not be tolerated. In order to avert such peril, it is incumbent to disengage from illusions and engage with realism."

              Realism is a quality clearly lacking in much of the rhetoric from this and previous administrations.

              Ettinger continues: "Unlike Western leaders, the Iranian revolutionary leadership is driven by ideological and religious conviction, bolstered by ancient imperialist ethos:

              "1. Jihad is the permanent state of relations between Moslems and non-Moslems, while peace and ceasefire accords are tenuous.

              2. The Shihada commits every Shiite to kill and be killed, in order to advance Shiite Moslem strategy

              3. The strategic goal of Shiite Islam -- which replaced illegitimate Judaism and Christianity -- is to convert humanity to Islam."
              That seems pretty straightforward. Is there anyone who can credibly doubt these stated goals? If not, why are we pretending radical Islamists don't mean it when they repeatedly prove they do?

              Some of the zeal directed toward illegal aliens crossing our southern border might better be focused on securing America from radical Islamists (emphasis added, PE). Instead, they build their mosques with minimal opposition from the squishy politicians and elites who could stand against them if they had any backbone. And so those radical Islamists who would dominate America move forward with plans to subjugate us all to their religion and way of life. If the Nazis or Soviets had been this good at infiltration and neutralizing criticism, we, not they, would be on "the ash heap of history." …

              If at that critical moment in our history, Paul Revere had not devised the plan to light signal lanterns in the belfry of Old North Church for fear of being called an "Anglophobe," Queen Elizabeth's picture might be on our money today.

              Radical Islamists are here (emphasis added, PE). Who else besides Newt Gingrich and too few others will sound the call? Who else has the power to do something while they still can?
              Epilogue (by the present author)

              Both Samuel Huntington and Bernard Lewis have famously spoken of a “clash of civilizations.” Does any serious person with a modicum of knowledge of history believe that this clash is going to be resolved by diplomacy or by economics or by conventional politics or by a combination of the three? The Judeo-Christian world is now involved in a theological conflict with Islam. The sooner we face this truth, the sooner will we be able to take appropriate measure to safeguard our most cherished values.

              [i] Cited in Moorthy S. Muthuswamy, Defeating Political Islam: The New Cold War (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2009), pp. 54-55.

              [ii] (June 2, 2009).
              Jake Levi
              Oswego, NY

              We are all in this together


              • #8

                I have long been amused (in a non-humorous fashion) by those who defend "moderate" Islam as though it is somehow the norm. We all know that not "all" who practice Islam are terrorists and murderers, but to pretend that the type of things that Brett and Jacob have alluded to are somehow the "rare exception" rather than the rule is very shortsighted and dangerous.

                I've been fortunate in my own lifetime to meet a lot of people from many different cultures. I've studied a great many different religions and have always made it my practice to attempt to do so with an eye toward understanding even that in which I do not believe. My own faith is in no way weakened by the faith of others who are different from myself so having an honest view of their beliefs does not threaten me. It only enlightens me to understand them better.

                Fact. All of Islam is governed by a singular and all encompassing mission. To subjugate the world to Islam, either by conversion, coercion, or the sword.
                I know people who have willingly converted, some who are glad and others who are enslaved and know it. Those who are now enslaved to the faith remain so as the penalty for leaving the Islamic Faith is Death. There are no "lesser" alternatives permitted under Islam.
                In various countries around the world (throughout history and in this time) there are also those who are coerced into subjugation via "taxation" to the Islamic ruling authorities. It is a practice dating back to the earliest Islamic conquests that requires those who will not convert to "pay" for the privilege of living under Islamic rule. That is what it means to be "protected". It is a punitive tax only applied to those who do not convert, and pressure to convert is applied continually. Often Slavery is involved and it is widespread throughout Northern Africa and many Asian countries where Islam has taken power.
                Option three is also practiced widely throughout the middle east, S.E. Asia, and Northern Africa. Killing the "Infidel" is simply a matter of course in the "peaceful" religion of Islam. It is common as dirt everywhere they have established sufficient power to feel in complete control. Everywhere else they simply wait for that day to come.

                The Q'uran commands every Muslim to do these things. It is not an option, it is the irrevocable law. They will not tell you this. When they speak to you they will do so "peaceably" so as to gain your confidence and trust. Lying to the Infidel is also a commandment of the Q'uran. They won't tell you that either. That is because they are commanded to lie to you and deny it. Wonderfully convenient isn't it? They are never allowed to lie to a fellow Muslim unless they believe the one they lie to is apostate, in which case they will lie to him, and then kill him for being apostate. It is the law of Allah.

                Right now they are preparing to build a Mosque at the site of the World Trade Towers as a demonstration of "peace and understanding"... That is the lie they tell to the Infidel. Go to Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, anywhere in Northern Africa, Turkey, Spain, pick a place where Islam either rules or has in the past. You will find special Mosques erected on "Holy Ground" to commemorate "Conquered Ground" in a great victory over the Infidel. Former Catholic Churches and Monestaries that have been converted into Islamic Shrines. Former Synagogues converted for the same purpose. Not for the purpose of "peace and reconciliation" as is being advertised by the lying Imam in New York City. Strictly for the purpose of proclaiming "Victory".

                They won't tell you that in English. In English they will lie.
                They will celebrate it together in Arabic.
                In Arabic, Farsi, etc... they will speak the truth to one another as they celebrate "death to the Infidel".

                You can distract yourself with stories about past wrongs "in the name of God" by other religions if you wish. We don't live then. We live NOW, and NOW the only Religion engaged in Holy War is the "Peaceful and Serene" religion of Islam.
                Deal with it on its own terms, or it will surely come to deal with you.
                Larry Iles


                • #9

                  Sure sounds like control to me.

                  We would truly be a nation of “jellyfish brained zombies” if we gave in to you and your comrades and cast away anyone who doesn’t believe in the same God you believe in.

                  Wow- you got that out of what I wrote? No-I find it disturbing that we have gotten so far away from the Christian values that our country was based on that it is quite the norm to have babies raising babies out of wedlock. And excellence is almost a thing of the past because we wouldn't want little Johnnie falling behind because he can't keep up in a dumbed down class. All the while a certain group or race of people shouldn't be profiled because even though someone who fit their description, just did the crime.... I used the term jellyfish brained zombies, because we seemed to have lost common sense in order to protect everyone when it is having the very opposite effect -putting us all in danger and eroding our way of life.
                  No wonder kids are so messed up when they can't celebrate a federal holiday as Christmas anymore. And no.....I'm not speaking about jamming the baby Jesus down Jake's, or any of my Jewish friends's throat(or anyone of any other religeon)....I respect their beliefs. It's a legal day off and we are free to celebrate or not..... And from what I have read and know about Jesus -he wouldn't want me to either.


                  • #10

                    Consider the following verses from the Christian Bible:

                    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death.
                    1Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

                    Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
                    21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
                    21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
                    21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die

                    What you probably notice is that much of this is a little bit ugly. However, you also understand the tone of the Bible and think to yourselves, “Obviously these are out of context.” You know this because you know the Bible. But if you did not know and understand the Bible, you would get the idea the Bible encouraged putting sinners and the disobedient to death and subjugating women.

                    Now, take this verse from the Koran:
                    (Qur'an, 2:190-192) "And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out."
                    This is the verse that most Westerners believe is the mandate Muslims are given to kill the non-believers. (Infidel is actually a Christian term and not used in the Qur’an). Certainly, a cursory glance of this verse makes us Christians shudder, and yet it is out of context. Another obstacle is the translation from Arabic to English and many of us get the idea that we understand after a single reading.

                    The complete reference, in a better context looks more like this:
                    (Qur'an, 2:190-192) "And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."

                    After reading this, there is no hint of a mandate to wantonly kill the un-believers, but there is a clear mandate to protect yourselves when first attacked.

                    Further, there is no mandate for Muslims to attack and kill Christians. For support, I offer the following:
                    (Qur'an, 2:62) "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah (God) and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

                    (Qur'an, 2:256)"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."

                    These verses express the truth of Islam as an entity. The observations expressed in this forum are merely empirical evidence and really don’t carry weight. I respect the experiences y’all have had, however, they are observations in micro of a vast organism. Unfortunately, they compound with many more observations and people in the West make vast determinations on Muslims and their motives. You make determinations by talking to a few people, reflecting on a few experiences, and by watching the Muslims you know. However, this is irrelevant to the larger Muslim population.

                    Jake you claim I am ignorant of the Koran, and that is true to an extent. I own one and I read it from time to time, still, I know a smattering of it, but I suspect you only know the parts of it that allow you to make inflammatory statements. I may be wrong, but your experience is tempered by a war with the very people you oppose. War makes you jaded and you are obviously biased.

                    Empirical evidence is good for stimulating emotions. This is why people believe that Muslims are an inherent threat, yet this simply is not the case. People today are afraid that Muslims are going to take over the world, that we will be coerced or threatened, or simply converted into the faith. The idea is that they will then move into positions of power in the governments and implement sharia. This will not happen and it has been tried before. Medieval Europe was home to a growing Catholic Church. It aimed to dominate and control Europe and was unable to maintain what control it did have. It used tools such as the Inquisitions and the Crusades to convert non-believers by coercion, conversion, or sword. Not much has changed in the 600 years since except a new religion has entered its violent growth stage. If it runs the same course Christianity ran, it will last a few hundred years before the people force it back to moderation.
                    Having said that, I’ll say this; there is no reason for us to let down our guard. We should be ready to fight for our freedoms, and if a religion threatens our freedoms, then it needs to be dealt with. However, Islam is not threatening my freedom in the United States. It makes it harder for me to travel to places like Saudi Arabia, but I can still go to Singapore or even Egypt without fear of being forced at gunpoint to convert or die. Diligence is not the same as fear. Knowing a threat and preparing for it is better than lashing out in a hateful tirade of words or bullets.

                    Many people in the Western world are afraid, and this plays into the desires of terrorists far more than any threats of conversion they may hold over us. Fear is a weapon only to your enemy.
                    Last edited by DrCreosote; 08-04-2010, 02:24 AM. Reason: formatting
                    Sean Stephens



                    • #11

                      did you not see the cover of Time with the picture of 18 year old Aisha who's husband and brother in law, with the suport of the local authority, cut off her nose and ears!

                      quote old books all you want, time to wake up and smell todays coffee.


                      • #12

                        Yes, I saw Aisha's picture and this is part of that empirical evidence I mentioned before. It tugs at the heart strings, doesn't it? That's what Time is hoping for.

                        So what do you do now? Will you hide under the desk? Will you shoot a Muslim? Will you pass laws banning their religion in your state? Press your congressman to launch that nuclear holocaust? What freedoms of your own will you willingly sacrifice in order to force them out?

                        Lots of fear on this thread, but no one seems to have a plan of action. I would be interested to know what your coffee tells you to do.
                        Sean Stephens



                        • #13

                          Like I said before, you can distract yourself with any kind of wrongs or misunderstandings or misinterpretations about "other religions" from the past if you wish. It changes nothing.
                          We don't live then.
                          We live now.
                          There is no Spanish Inquisition now.
                          There are Fatwa's issued against westerners now.
                          There are no Crusades let by men on orders from the Pope ransacking Jerusalem and killing anyone who does not convert, now.
                          There are plenty of Islamic Crusaders attacking western civilizations just because they are western, now.
                          There are no Jewish fathers stoning their sons and daughters to death for disobedience now.
                          There are plenty of Muslims fathers doing that and worse, not only in the middle east but in Europe and the U.S.A. They seek "sharia compliance" in order to hide behind religious freedom when they get caught now.

                          Imam's love it when Christian apologists apply western interpretations to Q'uranic verse. It sounds wonderful to the western ear that way. Unfortunately it isn't taught to children attending Madras's the way you read it.

                          Like Jake said, the Q'uran is only one part of written text just as the Bible is only one part of written Jewish or Christian text. Few Christians understand Jewish Orthodoxy because they are ignorant of the Mishna Tova. Read that and you'll understand how the "Law" is interpreted into daily life with detail and depth.
                          Read a typical English translation of Q'uran and you'll see a superficial rendering of the words. Read the interpretive texts developed by the Imam's and you'll discover many interesting things.
                          For instance, Islam believes that "Jesus" is the "Messiah" (Ma Hadi) who will return at the end of days. You won't read that in the Q'uran. You will hear it taught in the Madras' and Mosque's. When "Jesus" returns according to Islamic teaching he will go to Jerusalem to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. Sound's downright Evangelical Christian doesn't it? Once in Jerusalem he will go to the Temple Mount and standing there will cause a great earth quake to split the earth open. Almost sounds like it is straight from the book of Revelation doesn't it? Actually it is, with a few "minor" changes. Instead of a river of life flowing from the throne of God (the restored Jewish Temple) that restores the desert into a "well watered plane" flowing through the Dead Sea on on to the Gulf as in the "Christian Scripture" there is a "less happy" ending.
                          In Islamic teaching the "Jesus" stands atop the Dome of the Rock (Al Aqsa) and from there he gathers all "People of the Book" ("protected" Jews and Christians) and throws them all into hell for not obeying Mohamed. After all, according to Mohamed there is only One God, Allah is his ONLY name, and Mohamed is his true prophet. Failure to obey Mohamed always results in death.
                          You won't read that story in the Q'uran. Did they forget to tell you that Mohamed and the Imam's glean selectively from the Torah, the Prophets, and the writings of the Apostles when teaching followers of the Q'uran?
                          Those verses from Deuteronomy you quoted? They are taught in the Madras' as Holy writ and incorporated into Islamic practice. It is part of "Today's" Islamic family life.
                          That is why Jews and Christians are called "People of the Book". Islam LIKES the Book. Islam has its own Q'uranic way of reading the Book, interpreting the Book, and teaching the Book.
                          Dear old Mohamed took the "Book" as his own, added to it with an "Al-Lat" twist (desert demon god) and gave us Islam. A true celebration of "religious diversity" don't you think?
                          Enjoy the delusion of "peace".
                          Larry Iles


                          • #14

                            Last Saturday afternoon in Galveston, Texas. Yes, "
                            my little part of the world." The Strand Historical District, a collection of shops and stores in the old part of Galveston, turn of the century buildings, quaint, fun, and just recovering from a devestating hurricane two years ago.

                            A shop belonging to buddy of mine. In walks the typical tourist in bermuda shorts, tee shirt and sandles. A few steps behind him is what appears to be a woman, in a burkha, black, covered from head to foot, quiet, submissive and not shopping like her husband. They leave, he drives the car.

                            LAST Saturday, not a thousand years ago. Galveston, not Mecca. Now we as a country worked really hard for more than a two centuries to try and bring equity to all people and races and both sexes. As a white male with two (grown) daughters I became acutely aware of both the advantages I had as a kid and the fact that opportunity is now open to women that did not exist previously. I want the best for my daughters and I know they can and will make HUGE contributions to society as they are ALLOWED to do so. Under the lunacy of Islam and sharia law they could not. PERIOD.

                            Call me what you like, but I want my daughters to reach their true potential in life, be self reliant, have a family if they wish, pursue a career, and do all those things that make life worth living. Not be a subjugated slave to anybody, as Muslim women appear to be.

                            Much of my extended family is Syrian. I've Muslim friends and neighbors that I feel are basically good people. And yet, I have not seen ANY of them PUBLICLY decry the violence and bloodshed across the Muslim world and elsewhere and subjugation of women that the Muslim faith entails. If they did so then there would be some modicum of respect by me. But they do not. So there is no respect for humans that behave inhumanly because of what they testify to as their "faith."

                            I canceled my trip to Azerbaijan as I could not, in clear conscience, go and help those people.

                            Oh, yeah, I've been outside my little corner a time or two....ask anybody that knows me. I am a traveler of the world. Indeed, hence my fear of the KNOWN.

                            You (referring to everybody that is not ME) beleive and practice as you please, it is the law of this land. BUT, when your beliefs and practices run roughshod over mine, and you not only profess to, but do ugly and illegal acts, and practice pedophilia and subjugation of all women, in the name of God or anything else, your right to do so ends.

                            "Islam is an evil religion." Billy Graham. He had to retract those words and I'm no fan of Billy Graham, but HE WAS RIGHT. I see no rightousness, no help of fellow man, absolutely no tolerance in Islam.

                            A mosque disguised as a community center by Ground Zero? Would I be allowed to build a church two blocks from Mecca? After I had blown it up?

                            Would I be allowed to build a church ANYWHERE in an Islamic ruled country? Would I be allowed to proselytize my faith on the street corner?

                            Where is the tolerance? Where is the peace?

                            I've always been taught to "turn the other cheek." but I've only two cheeks. I've been taught tolerance and that ALL humans are deserving of dignity and respect. I see no such teachings in Islam.



                            • #15

                              Ok, I accept there are differing opinions and interpretations. I won't beat that up any more. This thread is rapidly moving in the same direction any discussion of religion (particularly by outsiders) is going, so I'll ask you this:

                              What are you going to do about it?

                              You all seem to have this great concern that Islam is going to take over your neighborhoods and your lives and will threaten your way of life, but no one seems to have any solutions. All the knowledge and understanding in the world is pointless if it has no use, so put what you know to work and develop a solution.

                              Though I have a vague recollection of someone who attempted a solution, he called it a final solution, and it didn't work. Is this the direction you will go?

                              Seriously, I want to see your ideas.

                              Sean Stephens



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