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Thread: help me understand akame koi

  1. #1
    Tosai Fishy Mama's Avatar
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    help me understand akame koi

    ok, I always thought akame koi was an albino that displayed as a pale colored kigoi with red eyes.

    Then today on ebay I find one listed as an albino chagoi with red eyes
    8"VERY RARE ALBINO (RED EYES) CHAGOI JAPANESE LIVE KOI - eBay (item 160342400824 end time Jul-15-09 22:58:51 PDT)

    And then there is one listed as an albino shusui
    6.5" H.Q Rare Albino Hi Shusui Live Koi - eBay (item 170342483558 end time Jul-09-09 00:23:00 PDT)

    Sorry, I dont know how to shorten the links.

    Now imho, anything with color displaying cannot be an albino. So the pale chagoi should have brown netting correct?

    And that shusui certainly has color.

    So who is correct? Me or the two ebay sellers?
    A koi keeper always has too many koi, yet never has enough.

  2. #2
    Fry
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    Albino koi

    Hi,

    My thoughts are:

    Albino koi definitley have red eyes and normally have a pale yellow colour.

    The ebay albino 'chagoi', although the yellow is strong, is still an albino.

    The ebay albino shushui, without being able to see the red eyes properly in the photo, is a real suspect. It just unrealistic to have the blue colours.

    I think they meant red tinted iris instead of red eyes for that shusui.

    The common albino fish example I would use to describe the various albino shades are the red eye albino mollys.

    I tend to think that the purest albino mollys are those that have a creamy light cheddar cheese colour.eg, http://www.cheapfish.co.uk/Albino%20Molly.JPG

    Then, you get those which retain their xanophores, ie yellow, and the yellow can be light to real intense ranging from strong yellow to orange, eg, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebi...ipinna%20M.JPG to red. These shades have been seen in the mollys.

    Then you got those that actually managed to retain their melanophores, ie black fish on top with the large dorsal fins in the front cover of the book - published by TFH it is an albino if you get a copy of the book http://www.ozpetshop.com.au/product_...roducts_id/398, or brown black red eye albino mollys, eg: http://www.ekkwill.com/ekkwill_1996_12721355.jpg.

    These 'black' albino mollys do exist, and is a mystery for the geneticists in a way.

    PS: An equivalent would be the red eye red colour swordtails, albino with strong red colours.

    http://www.fishesninverts.com/blog/w...ordtail_01.jpg

    So, albino can have colours. Hope that helps.

    Kind regards

    Bill
    Last edited by bwleung; 06-23-2009 at 05:30 AM. Reason: spelling correction

  3. #3
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    An 'albino' is by definition a creature lacking pigment. A red eye can appear in an albino due to blood creating a tint in the iris of the eye when no pigment is present to mask it. There can also be 'albinos' with white eyes.

    A form of partial albinism has all pigment missing except yellow. This is what we normally see in koi. The Akame Kigoi is the result. This 'variety' can be produced among many varieties of koi. It is not necessarily a Kigoi-based fish at all.

    Through the intense in-breeding of ornamental fish, other examples of partial albinism appear. The black-speckled Molly with red eyes is one in which pigment is missing in the eye only. I do not consider these to be 'albino', but others will disagree.

    The so-called albino Chagoi posted on ebay is more properly called an Akame Kigoi. Whether it came out of a spawn of Chagoi only the breeder knows.

    The so-called albino Shusui posted on ebay is not albino in any way. It simply has red pigment on the eyes. This is not at all the same as a red eye created by the absence of pigment. This is an excellent example of either total ignorance by the seller or intentional consumer deception. Take your pick.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei
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    In lower forms of life especially, albinism is a series of gene mutations.

    Albino is often thought of as being 'white' with pink eyes. But that is not the definition of an albino koi. And albino is a fish with no back pigment. It can have other colors. So we see whitish tan albinos in koi as the 'first' albino. Line breeding this fish to emphasize the yellow brings us a nice kigoi. some remain peach colored or more common butter yellow and these albinos are given various names- bith historical and for also marketing purposes to nake them sound more rare. The key identifer for true albino is the eye color. The true albino will have a red/pink eye because the normal black is missing and you are seeing the blood circulation behind the glass clear eye.
    The other form of confused recessive mutation is the gene for leucism. This is a fish that has not only a lack of black but a reduced or absent presence of any color at all. in otherwords, the human eye sees it is a white fish. But this mutation will always have a black eye. This is because the mutation for lack of pigment of any kind does not effect the special skin behind the fish's eye, while in the fish is in embryonic stage and so you look right thru the clear eye and see the black backing behind the eye.

    The third possiblity in this overall group is the gene for pastel of washed out color. This is a partial domination of color development. Some breeders call this a leutino gene. This is simply a stage or intermendiate domination by the leucistic gene. In this case the eye will be black or navy blue.

    - JR

  5. #5
    Tosai Fishy Mama's Avatar
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    I understand how -cc- works in mammals, this is the true albino which is the total repression of the visual expression of color.

    Mammals also have aa- -ch - -ee which is a false albino. This gene normally produces a visually white or almost white coat with dark eyes with ruby center/glow. I suspect this is the leutino gene expression.

    I'm glad that I'm not the only one that does not think the shusui is properly identified.

    If the albino chagoi is actually a chagoi and not an akame, then what causes the netting color? Is netting in the chagoi family caused by color or by thickened scale edges?
    A koi keeper always has too many koi, yet never has enough.

  6. #6
    Daihonmei
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    I haven't seen the fish but netting is cause by black pigment at the scale base or tip. So if the fish has netting then it has black and can't be a true albino. My guess is it is more likely a leucistic form, but again I'd have to see it. Not sure what to say if it has red eyes? JR

  7. #7
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I would not call the pale shadows on the shoulder of an 8" tosai "netting". The written description on ebay does not seem to match the photos. Perhaps they were referring to the clearly defined scales.

  8. #8
    Tosai Fishy Mama's Avatar
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    Maybe the seller cant tell the difference between scales and netting
    A koi keeper always has too many koi, yet never has enough.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy Mama View Post
    Maybe the seller cant tell the difference between scales and netting
    Looking at both fish and reading their respective definitions the only possible conclusions are gross ignorance on the part of the sellers or pure bs hype in hopes of drawing undue attention to low grade fish. I can't see any indication of red in the eyes of the Chagoi-ish looking fish and the Shusui is simply a very, VERY low grade hi shusui with lousy dorsal scalation.
    Looking around at the other selections these two vendors have listed leaves the impression that "rare and unique" are favorite buzz words for both. I'll admit it would be "rare" to see low grade fish sell for 80-450$$$ at 6". They are somewhat "unique" insofar as so many survived sembetsu.
    Maybe getting prospective buyers to look for red eyes is the sellers way of getting you to ignore the rest of the fish...
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  10. #10
    Daihonmei
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    Marketing can be imaginative! And the carnival barker is alive and well in may forms on the Internet.
    Johnny Carson used to do a funny bit. He put on a bow tie, checkered suit, bowler hat and mustache and would hawk products like----

    " Willie the rope". Willie the rope was the new and improved 3 foot length of plain old clothes line rope that he introduced this way----

    Kids! Willie the rope is the next greatest Christmas toy you must have!!!! It does so many fun and exciting things!! You can swing it , tight rope walk on it, play jump rope, make it move like a snake, place gum on it and fish for pennies, play cops and robbers and tie up your friends, hang toys with it, the list of fun is endless!!! Willie the rope, just $ 29.95, available only from me ! So tell your parents you want Willie the rope and I will rush one right out to you so you can start having fun !!

    It is very sad to see our rich hobby filled with tradition, a unique origin, decades of breeding, massive amounts of energy expended to save the lines from WWII influences and a real culture formed around all that, somehow being reduced to con artists fooling uninformed newbies into paying silk purse prices for sow's ears. Capitalism as it's worst.

    This is why I buy all MY koi from the Internet breeders in Nigeria that not only sell high class 'rare' koi, they are also princes and prime ministers that need help with their banking transfers !

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