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Thread: If scaleless koi are "koi" then so are Long fins

  1. #1
    Daihonmei
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    If scaleless koi are "koi" then so are Long fins

    Now right now within the hobby there is no reasoning as to what is a koi and what is not....

    Did you know the common carp is not a koi? why is that? Do you believe they aren't because genetically Koi are different? And you believe that?... that is a lot of Carp Crap.
    So then if a common carp is not a koi the koi world allows Breeders to take non-koi and breed them with koi and the result is "koi."
    Breedrs can even brag about bringing in different genes from NON-koi to make their line of koi structurally different and larger by introducing genes from "Non-koi"?

    But some of you can reason and will be thinking the "koiness" of a koi can be improved by adding strong genes from wild non-koi, and the resulting cross is even more what a koi is supposed to be. (Hang onto that pearl of wisdom when I add doitsu to the argument)

    Yet the genes introduced to establish the long-fin made "koi" a more attractive and hardier fish to many people so ...OH NO WAIT LOOK THOSE GENEs DISTORTED THE STANDARD IMAGE OF WHAT IS KOI...a long finned koi cannot be a koi because even if it is 99.99% koi it does not look "koi."


    OK if we go with the "Standardized Image of what it is to be a Koi", How the hell can the Koi hobby recognize Doitsu?

    And the craziest of things is the doitsu koi loose MORE of the aspect of The Standardized Koi Image that is considered of great beauty and integral to what is koi, and that is how the scalation is both beautiful and a challenge when creating the next improvement in koi...Remove the scales and you do NOT have "koi" if when the fins become longer you do not have koi.
    The silliness of allowing Doitsu into the show tank before they got an understanding of what they had done was just a blind error made in the distant past. Back then the hobby was unprepared to protect the image of what was a koi, and Doitsu were another pretty thing to play with in the genetic mix of what could be done with the REAL koi. And before anyone knew it the scaleless camel had his whole scaleless body in the tent.
    yet here is where the hobby needs to look at itself and either to clean up the image of what is a koi by removing Doitsu from consideration as koi, or allow both doitsu and long fins into the Show tent.
    Ah but there is even more...Doitsu were allowed in when the hobby was new, and more bling was what the breeders were chasing.... Since then the hobby morphed, and its emphasis both in breeding and appreciation has morphed from "Bling" to an appreciation of "Quality."
    So doitsu are koi? and Long fins are not? Yet Doitsu look less like koi than long fins do, especially to those that appreciate the real beauty of koi.... scales... the way the color and pattern are able to express themselves through and with them...and even just the scalation itself.

    Doitsu OUT
    or Long fins IN.
    Last edited by luke frisbee; 12-03-2009 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Honmei MCA's Avatar
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    Neither ZNA, AKCA or other koi hobbist organizations agree. Such judging rules as we have in the States from AKCA for longfins clearly keep them seperated.
    Koi keeping is not a belief system; it is applied science with a touch of artistry.

  3. #3
    Honmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke frisbee View Post
    Now right now within the hobby there is no reasoning as to what is a koi and what is not....

    Wrong again Luke. There are specific judging standards as to what a koi is.

    Did you know the common carp is not a koi? why is that? Do you believe they aren't because genetically Koi are different? And you believe that?... that is a lot of Carp Crap.

    Wrong again Luke, see above, same answer.

    So then if a common carp is not a koi the koi world allows Breeders to take non-koi and breed them with koi and the result is "koi."
    Breedrs can even brag about bringing in different genes from NON-koi to make their line of koi structurally different and larger by introducing genes from "Non-koi"?

    But some of you can reason and will be thinking the "koiness" of a koi can be improved by adding strong genes from wild non-koi, and the resulting cross is even more what a koi is supposed to be. (Hang onto that pearl of wisdom when I add doitsu to the argument)

    Yet the genes introduced to establish the long-fin made "koi" a more attractive and hardier fish to many people so ...OH NO WAIT LOOK THOSE GENEs DISTORTED THE STANDARD IMAGE OF WHAT IS KOI...a long finned koi cannot be a koi because even if it is 99.99% koi it does not look "koi."


    OK if we go with the "Standardized Image of what it is to be a Koi", How the hell can the Koi hobby recognize Doitsu?

    And the craziest of things is the doitsu koi loose MORE of the aspect of The Standardized Koi Image that is considered of great beauty and integral to what is koi, and that is how the scalation is both beautiful and a challenge when creating the next improvement in koi...Remove the scales and you do NOT have "koi" if when the fins become longer you do not have koi.

    Doitsu koi have the same body comformation (including finnage), Longfins do not.

    The silliness of allowing Doitsu into the show tank before they got an understanding of what they had done was just a blind error made in the distant past. Back then the hobby was unprepared to protect the image of what was a koi, and Doitsu were another pretty thing to play with in the genetic mix of what could be done with the REAL koi. And before anyone knew it the scaleless camel had his whole scaleless body in the tent.
    yet here is where the hobby needs to look at itself and either to clean up the image of what is a koi by removing Doitsu from consideration as koi, or allow both doitsu and long fins into the Show tent.
    Ah but there is even more...Doitsu were allowed in when the hobby was new, and more bling was what the breeders were chasing.... Since then the hobby morphed, and its emphasis both in breeding and appreciation has morphed from "Bling" to an appreciation of "Quality."
    So doitsu are koi? and Long fins are not? Yet Doitsu look less like koi than long fins do, especially to those that appreciate the real beauty of koi.... scales... the way the color and pattern are able to express themselves through and with them...and even just the scalation itself.

    Doitsu OUT
    or Long fins IN.
    The actual silliness is you believing your logic holds higher regard than those who actually make the determination....the Japanese...afterall, Nishikigoi are their invention. When you can invent something, then you can make the determination of what is and what does not fall within your definition.


    Steve
    The views presented are my personal views and not that of any organization that I may belong to unless otherwise specified. [email protected]
    CKHPA

  4. #4
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    If if's and but's were candy and nuts we would all have a very Merry Christmas

  5. #5
    Nisai Sigma Koi's Avatar
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    Strange how all that is standing between longfins being called a koi is a good pair of scissors...

    I have eyes and can form my own opinion beyond what the Japanese tell me. Longfins and doistu are koi, just different varieties than standard. IMO to say differently is to demote the hard work of the breeders of these varieties- foreign and domestic.

    ~Raymond.

  6. #6
    Honmei KoiCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayJordan View Post
    If if's and but's were candy and nuts we would all have a very Merry Christmas
    LOL Ray . . .

    I'll see yours and raise you:

    'If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride!'
    Don Chandler
    Member: AKCA, ZNA, KoiUSA

  7. #7
    Daihonmei
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    "Doitsu koi have the same body comformation (including finnage), Longfins do not."
    ---Steve Childers

    Sometimes you amaze me, and you're a qualified judge? Doitsu are known for NOT having the same body conformation as Scaled koi..when one does it is often proclaimed superior to the doitsu with the normal body shape.
    They are judged by the same conformation standard, and there is an attempt made by breeders to improve the Body conformation of Doitsu and that is all.

    As to the the two little quotes... there is logic in my assessment of how poorly the "Standard of what is a koi" was done when the gatekeepers let doitsu in..and a silly little quote does not change that.

    I do appreciate both of you (actually all three of you) showing your ignorance and inability to do anything other than listen and obey..well accept you Childers..you don't even understand Doitsu, which are said to be koi.
    There is hope for the hobby because at least none of the people that have shown to be intelligent and capable of applying logic to the Quandary created by Doitsu in Long fins out" have been flippant about it.


    Doitsu are not koi if long fins are not koi except for the fact that long ago no one was able to man up and proclaim that koi should remain koi.

    I'm not saying that long fins should be admitted to the "koi Circle". I am not saying that Doitsu should be thrown out...what i am saying is that the leadership within the hobby can't figure out their koi from a hole in the ground...
    The reason one is a koi and one isn't is based merely on a decision which was NOT based on whether a fish was a koi or not. If that were the case then Doitsu would have never been allowed.
    Its skin AND body conformation WERE completely different when it was allowed to be called "koi." Longfin body conformation is also becoming mor koi like just as would be expected as an additional trait is bred into a population and then the specimens displaying the desired trait are then bred to meet the standard in other regards.
    To not be able to recognize the above is Ok, Some people can not apply reason, others can't do anything but repeat what they are told.

  8. #8
    Daihonmei
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    and Now i know i am right... i like it when these three are on the other side of the fence..I'd be worried if they weren't. They are an example of why the hobby is in the mess it is in when it comes to "doitsu Yes long fins No".

  9. #9
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    OK if perhaps this analogy will help. Lets look at dog shows. We can use as an example the dachshund. There is a specific breed standard body shape. A long body and short legs. Over time the ancstors of all dogs were inbred to produce specific recognized breeds. The orginal dachshund was bred with different breeds until today it has two recognized types of coats: smooth and long-haired. However the body shape has remained consistent. It remained a dachshund.

    Now lets pretend someone decided to cross a dachshund with a whippet. The new cross was really cute and a very nice dog but it had a different body shape and legs too long to conform to the dachshund standard and legs to short to conform to the whippet standards.

    They decide to name the new cross a "long legged" dachshund. They claim it is a dachshound because it has a smooth coat. The coat is what is important to be a dacshund not the body/leg lenght claim the lovers of the "long legged" dachshund. The Dog show organizers say it is not a dachshund and cannot be shown in a dog show to compete with dachshunds. The lovers of the new "long legged dachshunds cry foul and claim the dog show organizers are stupid and their mothers wear army boots. etc. etc. etc.

    Now, does any of this sound familiar???

  10. #10
    Nisai
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayJordan View Post
    OK if perhaps this analogy will help. Lets look at dog shows. We can use as an example the dachshund. There is a specific breed standard body shape. A long body and short legs. Over time the ancstors of all dogs were inbred to produce specific recognized breeds. The orginal dachshund was bred with different breeds until today it has two recognized types of coats: smooth and long-haired. However the body shape has remained consistent. It remained a dachshund.

    Now lets pretend someone decided to cross a dachshund with a whippet. The new cross was really cute and a very nice dog but it had a different body shape and legs too long to conform to the dachshund standard and legs to short to conform to the whippet standards.

    They decide to name the new cross a "long legged" dachshund. They claim it is a dachshound because it has a smooth coat. The coat is what is important to be a dacshund not the body/leg lenght claim the lovers of the "long legged" dachshund. The Dog show organizers say it is not a dachshund and cannot be shown in a dog show to compete with dachshunds. The lovers of the new "long legged dachshunds cry foul and claim the dog show organizers are stupid and their mothers wear army boots. etc. etc. etc.

    Now, does any of this sound familiar???
    not to be a pill, but why can there be long haired and smooth haired Dachsund and not standard and long fin koi?

    I mean ... you're saying that skin, though the largest and most visable organ on the creature can be whatever it like, but apendages must be held to a higher standard?

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