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Thread: Trying to understand the progressive mind

  1. #1
    Daihonmei
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    Trying to understand the progressive mind

    As a student of History I try very hard to understand other political systems and how the belief system works in real life and history.

    the communist for instance sees a world of one in which all citizens conform to aid the community and communial goals. yet in real life, state communism ALWAYS results in purges, mass deaths, poverty and dictatorship or a ruling class of authoritarian figures.

    The socialist model is simply about redistribution of wealth and a system that flies out of control as the 'rich' eventually can't support all the rest and ' all the rest' build both resentment and entitled attitudes as these freebies run out. And like any resource, they always do eventually run out.

    But the Progressive, a distinct American version of socialist, actually amuses and confuses me?
    We are told that " the rich" need to pay " their fair share". But they already pay most of the taxes and more and more of the lower class and the lower middle class now, pay no income tax at all?
    And the definition of 'rich' has sunk down to those making $200K a year. Now they are comfortable upper middle class individuals no doubt, but not rich. And they are the folks that spend it all! Kids, college, car payments, home repair etc is the stuff of a growing economy.
    So the silliest thing about progressive central planning is that if you make $199,000 you are the salt of the earth and just getting by according the democratic cartoon, but if you make $200,000, a thousand dollars more-- you are the selfish rich????
    Likewise I've been listening to the Progressive democratic talking points for a while now. It seems that if you don't support the idea that someone should be able to collect unemployment 2 years ( its always presented as 99 weeks as it 'sounds' better) you are cruel and making people suffer. But 'if' you agree that 99 weeks is fair and reasonable then you are a compassionate person? What if you think 150 weeks is more compassionate? or that 98 weeks is enough, are you then evil?
    The point is these number games are a trap to make you feel good or bad about yourself and your opinions. meanwhile, we are all going broke with our high minded self image issues.
    I do believe in safety nets. I do. But how about if you collect a pay check from the government in the form of an unemployment check you do some work for it? Parks to be cleaned, inner city kids to be tutored, public buildings to be painted.
    the truth is folks, a large chunk of the unemployeed are structurally unemployeed. They used to swing a hammer or saw wood and now are just not needed. The painting trade and the landscape trade is now owned by the illegal. And Walmart and mcDonalds can only hire so many people.
    If the government must interfer then let us all get something for our taxes. And if the individual wants to make more for their 30 hours work then let them transfer from the government unemployment work to the private sector's mirrored image of that job.

  2. #2
    Oyagoi
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    "Unemployment" only gets paid to those that work at SOMETHING (like picking up trash on the freeway or weedeating the courthouse lawn) for 20 hours a week and spends another 20 hours in some kind of school learning how to work at a job. Period.

    "Free Government Housing" is a room in an old army barracks, renovated for the purpose of housing able bodied but non-working members of society. They must work for 20 hours a week at keeping the place up and spend another 20 hours a week in school learning how to work at a job.

    "Food Stamps" are given only after working 20 hours a week on some sort of community project and spending another 20 hours a week in school learning how to work a job.

    Yes, we are indeed obligated to take care of those INCAPABLE of doing so themselves.

    But when did "You will eat bread by the sweat of your brow," turn into "You will get a beach house, beer, cigarettes, crack cocaine and hoes by the sweat of somebody else's brow?"

    The fix is easy enough. NO MORE WELFARE STATE. You take welfare, you need a leg up, you fell and need some help, FINE with me, but you will WORK for the help you get just like the rest of us. NO FREE RIDES for the able bodied and healthy. Period.

    You take welfare, you live in government housing, you take food stamps, fine, but to do so YOU GIVE UP YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE. No more perpetuating the welfare state by buying votes with welfare checks.

    You work, you pay taxes, you get to vote. Otherwise you got no say.

    Yeah, I know its demeaning to make people that don't like working to do so. That those of that "enjoy" working should pay the way for those of us that prefer to not work. That its the people's right to vote in welfare giving politicians. HELL NO I DON'T.

    DISMANTLE THE WELFARE STATE, MR. PRESIDENT.
    Brett

  3. #3
    Sansai
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    As a student of History I try very hard to understand other political systems and how the belief system works in real life and history.

    the communist for instance sees a world of one in which all citizens conform to aid the community and communial goals. yet in real life, state communism ALWAYS results in purges, mass deaths, poverty and dictatorship or a ruling class of authoritarian figures.

    The socialist model is simply about redistribution of wealth and a system that flies out of control as the 'rich' eventually can't support all the rest and ' all the rest' build both resentment and entitled attitudes as these freebies run out. And like any resource, they alwasy can run out.

    But the Progressive, a distinct American version of socialism actually amuses and confuses me?
    We are told that " the rich" need to pay " their fair share". But they already pay most of the taxes and more and more of the lower class and the lower middle class now, pay no income tax at all?
    And the definition of 'rich' has sunk down to those making $200K a year. Now they are comfortable upper middle clas individuals but not rich. And they are the folks that spend it all! Kids, college, car payments, home repair etc is the stuff of a growing economy.
    So the silliest thing about progressive central planning is that if you make $199,000 you are the salt of the earth and just getting by according the democratic cartoon, but of you make $200,000, a thousand dollars more-- you are the selfish rich????
    Likewise I've been listening to the Progressive democratic talking points for a while now. It seems that if you don't support the idea that someone should be able to collect unemployment 2 years ( its always presented as 99 weeks as it 'sounds' better) you are cruel and making people suffer. But 'if' you agree that 99 weeks is fair and reasonable then you are a compassionate person? What if you think 150 weeks is more compassionate? or that 98 weeks is enough, are you then evil?
    The point is these number games are a trap to make you feel good or bad about yourself and your opinions. meanwhile, we are all going broke with our high minded self image issues.
    I do believe in safety nets. I do. But how about if you collect a pay check from the government in the form of an unemployment check you do some work for it? Parks to be cleaned, inner city kids to be tutored, public buildings to be painted.
    the truth is folks, a large chunk of the unemployeed are structurally unemployeed. They used to swing a hammer or saw wood and now are just not needed. The painting trade and the landscape trade is now owned by the illegal. And Walmart and mcDonalds can only hire so many people.
    If the government must interfer then let us all get something for our taxes. And if the individual wants to make more for their 30 hours work then let them transfer from the government unemployment work to the private sector's mirrored image of that job.
    It's rather simple. To start you cannot comprehend, or do what is best for society and for yourself/family (your wants/needs are secondary) without direction and persuation from above.

    Understand that and then you don't have to understand 4 legs good, 2 legs better. What's good for them is good for you...

    I'm sure our friend Bob has a better explaination though. The guy is a genious.

  4. #4
    Sansai
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    The romans gave bread, we give checks. Same affect and consequences. The road to serfdom is a *****. Ok, that may be over the top, but at a certain point gov't revenue will match expenditures and the reality will be faced. I suspect the world will be a happy place shortly there after.

  5. #5
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by zek View Post
    It's rather simple. To start you cannot comprehend, or do what is best for society and for yourself/family (your wants/needs are secondary) without direction and persuation from above.

    Understand that and then you don't have to understand 4 legs good, 2 legs better. What's good for them is good for you...

    I'm sure our friend Bob has a better explaination though. The guy is a genious.
    Thanks Zek, I think I get it? The collective is the thing. Society is most important and more important than the person or the individual. Is that about it? But why then do we focus only on one income group? Or one class of people? And why must some people work and others need to be cared for? And why are some members of the collective charged with responsibility and others none? Is it a case of " From each according to his ability, to each according to his need " ? JR

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JasPR View Post
    As a student of History I try very hard to understand other political systems and how the belief system works in real life and history.

    the communist for instance sees a world of one in which all citizens conform to aid the community and communial goals. yet in real life, state communism ALWAYS results in purges, mass deaths, poverty and dictatorship or a ruling class of authoritarian figures.

    The socialist model is simply about redistribution of wealth and a system that flies out of control as the 'rich' eventually can't support all the rest and ' all the rest' build both resentment and entitled attitudes as these freebies run out. And like any resource, they alwasy can run out.

    But the Progressive, a distinct American version of socialism actually amuses and confuses me?
    We are told that " the rich" need to pay " their fair share". But they already pay most of the taxes and more and more of the lower class and the lower middle class now, pay no income tax at all?
    Be honest now JR...I know it is difficult for you to be truthful. The ultra rich have the best accountants!! They are the best at working their taxes to pay the least. I saw lines of people for free tax evaluations at an acorn office...think those people have the same advantages as far as accounting and paying taxes.
    And the definition of 'rich' has sunk down to those making $200K a year. Now they are comfortable upper middle clas individuals but not rich. And they are the folks that spend it all! Kids, college, car payments, home repair etc is the stuff of a growing economy.
    So the silliest thing about progressive central planning is that if you make $199,000 you are the salt of the earth and just getting by according the democratic cartoon, but of you make $200,000, a thousand dollars more-- you are the selfish rich????
    Who is making a cartoon view now?? To make a specific number is just for the sake of classifying and quantifying things. Everything in life, finance and politics does this.
    Likewise I've been listening to the Progressive democratic talking points for a while now. It seems that if you don't support the idea that someone should be able to collect unemployment 2 years ( its always presented as 99 weeks as it 'sounds' better) you are cruel and making people suffer. But 'if' you agree that 99 weeks is fair and reasonable then you are a compassionate person? What if you think 150 weeks is more compassionate? or that 98 weeks is enough, are you then evil? Again...you cannot make policy and laws without quantifying things. Don't pretend you do not realize this...I know you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but you do know why this is done.
    The point is these number games are a trap to make you feel good or bad about yourself and your opinions. meanwhile, we are all going broke with our high minded self image issues. No...the point is to make policy and put things in writing. Cannot be done without numbers!!!
    I do believe in safety nets. I do. But how about if you collect a pay check from the government in the form of an unemployment check you do some work for it? Parks to be cleaned, inner city kids to be tutored, public buildings to be painted.
    You know what...you are simply ignorant. This is because you work with the wealthy and cannot comprehend anything beyond the situations you see regularly. I have had several friends lose jobs. People who want to work...and have worked hard for years. You know what they all say....looking for a new job, IS a full time job!!! They describe what they go through to do an honest job search...and it literally takes up the day. Your statements just show a ridiculous mentality...really scary!!
    the truth is folks, a large chunk of the unemployeed are structurally unemployeed. They used to swing a hammer or saw wood and now are just not needed. The painting trade and the landscape trade is now owned by the illegal. More bullsh!t as usual. I have a landscaper at my house...born here, young and hard working. I have had plenty of work on my homes and office...all Americans doing the work. Stop making Sh!t up dude...it is really sad!! And Walmart and mcDonalds can only hire so many people.
    If the government must interfer then let us all get something for our taxes. And if the individual wants to make more for their 30 hours work then let them transfer from the government unemployment work to the private sector's mirrored image of that job.
    Zek....and I have a degree in Applied physics with a minor in chemistry and math to prove it!!! You could add the Dr. before my name as well...so, choke on it!!!

    We could discuss the conservative mind...but, it is too hateful and self centered for me to really waste my time. I mean, it was the last 2 republicans who started useless wars. It was the last idiot republican who cut medicaid services. I worked in a clinic just yesterday. Had a diabetic with and ulcer on his foot...4in by 2in...a huge risk for a leg amputation. Rather than pay me the lousy $10 a week I was getting to help the guy, he has to go to a clinic that can only see him once a month..by, a different doctor each time. The amputation, if it happens, will cost over $100,000...and cost this man his life within 5 yrs. So...this is what bush left us as his legacy to health care.
    I left these discussions because your political opinions sicken me. Truly sicken me. I like to think it is not your fault...that it is ignorance, not cruelty. You work with the rich...and truly do not understand poverty. Volunteering occasionaly will not change those opinions, but they do make you feel better. But, these types of opinions and people want a society that I would be embarrased to live in. My mother(an ex-republican) always told me...You judge your society by how they care for their sick, elderly and poor. We are sorely lacking....and if republicans had their way, it would be much, much worse!!

    I am out of here again...not worth my time. I am sure zek with have something brilliant to say...since he is truly the brightest of bulbs.


    If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.

  7. #7
    Oyagoi woodyaht's Avatar
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    Sooooo Bobblehead since you are out of your silence..........

    How many peoiple do you employ that you pay to sit at their desk and do nothing?

    How about hiring as many people as you can sit in your office and do nothing?

    To all the lefties that own a business............ How many people do you employ to sit at a desk and do nothing? Someone that contributes nothing to your profits????????

    Well that's our government that you stand behind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Not one business owner in their right mind would pay a individual to sit at a desk and contribute nothing, yet the lefties think it's a'ok to pay people to sit on their ass and do nothing.....................

    And in the mean time the lefties think it's grand to help out the less fortunate, yet no one in their right mind would pay a employee to sit at a desk and do nothing
    “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed” Adolf Hitler


    Chris~

  8. #8
    Are you talking about people who are unemployed...or on disability? My sister just lost her job...she is an Optician. She has a crazy work ethic..much more than mine. Blizzards, flu, fever chills...she goes to work. She had a great job, place went out of business. Got hired at another place...business got slow, last hired was first fired. Now...she will look for another job, of course. But, I sure as heck do not expect her to pick up garbage in a park while she is looking and on unemployment!! What people say here is just nutty...and shows a high level of arrogance!! I simply find these comments to be ridiculous and stupid!!


    If your desire to succeed is greater than your desire to fail, then you will succeed.

  9. #9
    Oyagoi woodyaht's Avatar
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    Doesn't matter! Answer the questions............. Anyone that can breathe can perform tasks to benefit human kind.

    How many people do you employ to sit at your desks and do nothing??????????????? None!!!!!!!!!!

    So your saying your sister is above picking up garbage to make ends meat? I would if I had too........... But I guess that shows what I am made of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If it mean't putting food on my table to provide for my family.

    Ohhh well, just another leach.................
    “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed” Adolf Hitler


    Chris~

  10. #10
    Oyagoi woodyaht's Avatar
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    Bob,

    Since your leftist mind is so generous, why don't you give your sister a job at your desk doing nothing and pay her the 80K a year she deserves!!!!!!!!!! Instead of *itching about her unfortunates on a koi forum! Ohhh, wait that would cut into your bottom line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You want to do that for all the other unfortunate people of America, yet not for your sister.............. PALEEEEZE. Tell us again how you donate your time. Yet your not helping your sister???????????????????

    What you say is NUTTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Leftist are all about helping others, yet first hand we have one that is complaining on how his sister can't get a job............. Help her out Bob, cut your salery to give her some hope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You want that for all the rest of America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed” Adolf Hitler


    Chris~

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