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Thread: Satsuke

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    Satsuke

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    Satsuke is the Grand Champion at the AJS in 2010. She is a kohaku breed by Dainichi Koi Farm and previously owned by Mr. Kato. I just found out that she had already died after one breeding cycle. She was well over a meter long when she died, but Shigeru told me that although she didn't produce that much offsprings, but her nisai looks great this year. Last year he offered a few of her offsprings at the SoCal koi show, so for those who picked up those certified tosai you have a piece of what was left of a great GC.

  2. #2
    Jumbo Tosai_Sunny's Avatar
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    That's a very sad news Tom. Do you have any of her offsprings in swimming in your pond? BTW, will Shigeru come to Texas for fish sale next year?

    Sunny

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    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    It is always sad to hear of the early demise of world class GCs. I am curious how many ZNA All-Japan and Shinkokai All-Japan GCs from the past 10 years are still living.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    It is always sad to hear of the early demise of world class GCs. I am curious how many ZNA All-Japan and Shinkokai All-Japan GCs from the past 10 years are still living.
    very few mike, the demands of the beauty contest are just too demanding as size is at the end of the day, mandatory for competing. Not only do we see a lot of forced feeding and intensive grow out but like great danes or Irish wolf hounds, who live 1/2 the life span of a natural dogs such as shepard, you have health issues of giantism. Finally, most line bred fish are a combination of traits both good and bad. Bad piles up along side the good.
    I'd suggest that we may very well be heading for reality that very high end jumbos we be seen as having a average life span of 5- 8 years. That's controversial I know, but probably likely to be tracked by outsiders at some point. This is a change as back in the early 1990s when I was going to Japan twice a year, I would routinely see an old GC at Kato's or at one or more of the breeders ( saw a really famous on at Torazo in 92) and they were 'OLD' fish! But I can't recall seeing too many of the GCs alive from the early 2000s. I'm sure they exist but in ever dwindling numbers. And we all know of the quick ends to several of the shinkokai GCs of ths south. I suspect we are seeing a trend.
    Ironically, the GCs of the 1980s and 90s were considered too small and too weak as an inbred group and the challenge was issued to make a one meter gosanke. The race was one-- they got bigger all right, but in many ways they are weaker than ever before. Not in terms of disease resistance but in endurance and against internal malfunction and cancers. Some things have definitely improved and koi are most beautiful, but something has also been lost in the race towards the gigantic. JR

  5. #5
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Many years ago, JR, on NI, there was a thread that ended up with you saying you were going to start up 'JR's Used Grand Champions' dealership, like a used car lot. I volunteered to be first in line to get a faded All-Japan GC just for the honor of having such a fish. It was a joke, of course. I knew I'd not afford such a koi even in her final decrepitude. But, it was a fun thought. Now, you burst my balloon with the idea that such a one might not survive to become decrepit. Oh, well. There is a certain melancholy to the notion. Still, koi with no beauty are killed en masse daily in the culling process, and the least that survive succumb shortly in the garden puddles. The ancient saying is that it is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. We can adapt it. 'Tis better to have shone brightly than to have never shone at all.

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    Jumbo
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    I think if we look closely at the circumstances of the demise of these Grand Champions we'll near always see that human pampering and slip ups were the reasons,... Once they reach that level of acclaim,... special treatment,... meds for fear and safety, or breeding do them in rather than natural causes.

    Brady

  7. #7
    Sansai redman's Avatar
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    Whatever happened to that Yamatoya Champ showa? Anyone know? I really liked that koi.

  8. #8
    Oyagoi RayJordan's Avatar
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    I heard the the beautiful Dianichi Showa that won this year's All Japan Show was shipped to SE asia after the show and won a regional show a few weeks later but it was not looking well and passed away soon after.

    No doubt JR is correct that these jumbo koi pay a price in terms of longevity. I also agree with Brady that there is a lot of extra wear and tear on these Jumbo koi they do not handle transportation as easily as a smaller koi and the desire to get as much as possible out of them including breeding for marketing purposes takes it's toll.
    Disclosure:These opinions are based on my experience and conversations with persons I consider accomplished koi keepers and do not reflect the viewpoint of any organization.

  9. #9
    Daihonmei
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brady Brandwood View Post
    I think if we look closely at the circumstances of the demise of these Grand Champions we'll near always see that human pampering and slip ups were the reasons,... Once they reach that level of acclaim,... special treatment,... meds for fear and safety, or breeding do them in rather than natural causes.

    Brady
    Good morning Brady, I agree, and I hope I sucessfully conveyed that in my post? But we really don't know if which came first, the chicken or the egg. So is it genetics of size, pampering, the moving of a heavy body with stressed metabolic challenges or just a general weakness cause by all those factors. I don't know if it really matters ( although if it is about adaptation and phyical moving that could change the overall view of big high class females as being 'weak')
    The net is still true, those that bring out their exceptional specimens that come to our chapter shows ( Lee Arronfeld for instance) deserve all our appreciation. Having a supporting dealer come along or bring alone the koi is also a big plus. Personally I think these exceptional specimens should only be moved once or at most, twice a year. And only when their eggs are absent and they have been conditioned to the pH and temperatures of the weekend show. JR

  10. #10
    Jumbo
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    Hey JR, no your post was well versed and right on,... it made me think a little though on the actual circumstances around why a lot of these Champion Koi have died,... and 'over caring for them' ranks high on the list of reasons. In other words when they reach that high of a status and perceived value level they get that extra potassium permanganate dip, and that rush into breeding,... etc,... and ironically they end up dying just like so many Koi of well-meaning but over coddling new hobbyists fish died.

    Does anyone have details on a few to share?

    Brady

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