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Thread: Black and White Kohaku???

  1. #11
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Let me filter out some ideas and see where this leads. In theory, selection for pattern is possible. Afterall, stepped kohaku patterns occur with greater frequency than in the very beginning of their development. By selecting for a desirable pattern type and breeding those koi together, it is possible increase the frequency of what you hope for over generations. For the student of genetics, pattern is subject to variable expressivity, but it is possible to increase the penetrance of certain patterns, to a limited extent - tancho is an example. There is research to show the percentage of pattern coverage is variable and to some extent predictable. It is also possible to move, repeat pattern types and alter how often they appear.

    I want to come back to thoughts already mentioned here, ie the difference in the behaviour of sumi vs beni expression & the potential pathways to sumi dan moyo, including the use of sumi goromo. In the meantime, I posted a few pictures back in the KoiShack days, that some here may remember. I have attempted to breed sumi dan moyo several times, through a number of different pathways and generations, with interesting results. Those results teach much about sumi gene expression ( a topic for another discussion)

    This koi below, I bred around 4 years ago is reasonably close to what Akai-San is asking about.
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  2. #12
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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  3. #13
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    There are a few spots of beni sitting infrequently around the edges, rather than sitting amongst the sumi, as would be found in sumi goromo.

  4. #14
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azngopher View Post
    If they can stabilize this type, it would sell. This was at the AJKS this year.



    Mi would put money down on one
    Yes, it would sell.... sumi on the head, a liquid sumi with sharply clean edges, and a gosanke type body. ...Rather like a fine Shiro Utsuri with a dorsal pattern instead of wrapping.

    Do you know the parentage, the breeder, etc.??

  5. #15
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Definitely looks like Akai-San's photoshopped dream koi! ...Do you export to Hawaiii, Bradley?

    I vaguely remember this. What parentage? Was it from some of your Matsukawabake efforts?

  6. #16
    Oyagoi Eugeneg's Avatar
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    I always thought that Kohaku ment amber or a colour between gold and orange in the Japanese language so how can you have a black kohaku?
    Regards
    Eugene

  7. #17
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Hopefully, to finalise my thoughts on producing sumi dan moyo. As we know, sumi in kumonryu or matsukawabake, change with the behaviour of appearance and disappearance. Utsuri sumi likewise changes considerably from juvenile to adult. The behaviour in these two types prevent is from establishing a regular, repeated, inheritable stepped pattern.

    What of bekko? This is perhaps the better candidate, as it has dorsal, stepped pattern. The drawback is the absence of sumi on the head and the tendency to produce small size patterns over the body. In theory, head sumi and larger patterns could be enlarged.

    The problem to overcome, is the behaviour of sumi in baby bekko. Large baby sumi is common. But, it shrinks considerably as the koi becomes juvenile/adult.

    My conclusion.............larger stepped sumi patterns are unlikely to be produced in a regular or repeated or inherited fashion due to the behaviour of sumi - it generally does not keep its location. It moves, shrinks, disappears or reappears. This differs considerably to the behviour of beni in kohaku, where enough are produced where the overall location remains mostly un-effected as the koi grows into adulthood.

  8. #18
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    and this is how my version of sumi dan moyo ended up.

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  9. #19
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Too bad. But, a nice Bekko. (I like sumi on the head.)

  10. #20
    Sansai
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    As was stated earlier, in the simplest of terms No, you cannot have a black and white Kohaku as Ko in and of itself, again as stated means amber or can mean. Even Kuroki states, and I quote "The Kohaku is a white koi with red markings, which is a simple combination of colors."

    Would hazzard a guess (as does Kuroki attempt to do with a number of similar type, albeit not exactly) as some sort of Goshiki/Koromo influence and/or sanke as is somewhat evident with the formation of the sumi as tiny dots on the head of this koi as (at least at this point) the type of sumi or at least an indication.

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