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Thread: Ki (yellow) and Karasugoi

  1. #1
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    Ki (yellow) and Karasugoi

    In Ki Utsuri (a black based fish), the sumi expression appears muted and washed out. It could be argued that perhaps in some way the sumi is linked to a dilution factor associated with the ki (yellow). Or perhaps it is an effect from the mix of both colours in the same location. In order to test if sumi can exist in an hyper-melanistic form, and therefore reduce/restrict how the ki affects the sumi, my experimental cross produced this interesting result with this 2 year old male. This is genuine yellow, rather than a dirty head-type as evidenced by the belly colour. Red bellied Karaugoi versions are common and culled. So while this koi, is similar and hardly unique, it does point to the dominant expression in the phenotype.
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  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    The intensity of the sumi of this one certainly makes the yellow pop. If only there was not so much. What was the cross? It has the appearance of a Ki Kumonryu.

    In the old photos of Ki Utsuri, the sumi is thin, watery charcoal gray in color, shading to true black on some scale edges. This same sort of thin sumi appears in old photos of Shiro Utsuri and early Showa. I heard a Japanese judge once refer to it as 'country sumi'... something from primitive rural areas, not up to date. I have thought of the weak sumi of Ki Utsuri as being the result of a lack of work in refining the variety as was done in the re-creating of Shiro Utsuri by Omosako and Showa by Kobayashi. In recent years I have seen a couple for sale by a U.S. dealer with fairly good sumi, but lacking the intensity expected today. I have been told that their sumi is most solid when they are young and tends to become thinner after the third year. However, I have not observed in person and do not know if this generality holds true. About 16 or so years ago, Brady Brandwood talked of trying to recreate Ki Utsuri. He would not reveal his plan. I suggested he consider crossing Yamabuki with Shiro Utsuri and then cull for the least metallic yellow ground, rather than for Kin Showa. I figured something dramatic was necessary, like Omosako using Showa to recreate Shiro Utsuri and Kobayashi using Kohaku to recreate Showa. Brady did undertake the endeavor, but never told me what he used. He ended up producing a few decent examples before leaving breeding behind, but a lot of work remained to get both colors right on good bodies. A lot of junk culls along the way.
    Last edited by MikeM; 09-13-2016 at 08:57 AM.

  3. #3
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    First cross was midorigoi x kumonryu - that produced ki kumonryu. The cross for this one was then ki kumonryu x matsukawabake. This crossed produce a fair number of matsukawabake with pale yellow skin but they do not photograph well as they are still developing the sumi. What they do have is deep, intense sumi, but not much to speak of - just yet.

    I too have read similar to what you have written. I feel that the sumi in Ki Utsuri is something of an issue of the dilution factor. In a similar fashion, attempts to put wrapped sumi over the grey base of soragoi produce a faded (dilute) appearance in the black. If I were a Japanese breeder interested in producing Ki Utsuri, I might consider developing a doitsu version, as this should raise the 'look' to the black and give a chance to add in the quality of sumi we see in Kumonryu. I hope try this myself at some stage.

  4. #4
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I would not have thought of using Midorigoi. Kumonryu/Matsukawabake goes back to the root, so there is a certain logic in using it. But, Midorigoi?? ....As I've thought about it, that is rather brilliant. Definitely a dramatic re-conception. Midorigoi has the yellow ground and the variety's main defect is the underlying sumi causing smudges and darkening. Getting the sumi of Midorigoi to 'rise' strongly in a pattern is quite the challenge.

    You refer to wrapping sumi. We have learned that wrapping sumi is a key characteristic of Utsuri/Showa. The continuing refinement of Shiro Utsuri and Showa has created more and more examples where there really is no wrapping. Rather, there are just large blocks of sumi on both the flanks and dorsally. These mimics pass muster for judging. So, whether what you end up creating is really Utsuri or not, if you achieve a yellow ground with bold black patterning, it will be beautiful. Nobody will care whether the sumi actually wraps, except some benching team member trying to make something new fit in old boxes.

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