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Thread: Karashi and Karashi hybrid fry

  1. #1
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Karashi and Karashi hybrid fry

    I pulled a set of Karashi out of the mud pond a few weeks back and filmed a bowl to show the different types. They were a large number of "grayish" fry produced. They might look darker and brown in the video, but they look gray in person with like a greenish iridescent tint. I have no idea how these will turn out, so I'm going to hold onto some and see how they develop.

    This is a group of around 75-80 (I think) that weren't separated out by type:



    Same again, lighting was getting lower as dusk approached:



    This is the same group after the "gray" ones were removed. There are still some that look similar, but they are really more brown like Chagoi, or have a faint Ochiba like pattern:



    Same group after all the "orange" type were removed:



    Finally, these 6 are unique among the group as they were either Goshiki, Ginrin, or a yellowish Kohaku (like Ichou)



    On the second pull, I got more interesting stuff but didn't film it. For the Karashi x Karashi spawnings, I got a lighter more "cream" colored type and also some that were brighter yellow. I'd be interested to see how you all identify which male you thing certain ones came from and why. After I hear your thoughts and opinions, I might have some interesting anecdotes to add.
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

  2. #2
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Well, Brian, I hesitate to venture a guess, except that the tosai with pattern came out of the Kohaku or Goshiki crosses, and most likely Kohaku if no signs of dark pigment. Do you know whether there was GR in the background of any of the oyagoi other than the male Kohaku? It would seem he added the GR to a lot of different types. I do not know what is considered a normal range of color types out of Karashi. I expect it varies from one match-up to another. Still, it seems a bit strange to me that there would be darkish hues with ginrin coming out of a GR Kohaku cross with Karashi. While Karashi harks back to 'old genetics', I know nothing about the extent to which Karashi produce Chagoi/Soragoi types. I would have expected the darkish ones to be out of the Goshiki cross and a lot of muji out of the other crosses.

  3. #3
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Hi Mike,

    None of the other male parents have any GR in their background, at least that I'm aware of. It really struck me as odd as well, but I think there is probably any explanation somewhere. I think I have an idea why this might be, but they are just ideas at this point. Karashi were originally a made from a cross between Kigoi and Chagoi. Some Karashi when small have and outline of faint sumi on the very edges of the fins, which resembles what you can see on Soragoi as well. It recedes over time but suggests that sumi exists in pretty uniform distribution and is only seen in areas that are thin, such as the tips of the fins, most notably the dorsal and tail fin. As the tissue grows and thickens, it's not visible anymore.

    I've not done a strictly Karashi x Karashi spawning yet, so I'm not sure if these gray ones are something to be expected. Given that there are a few gray ones that are GR (there are more than in this one video) my guess is that they are a product of the non-GR Kohaku male parent. There wasn't a single GR Goshiki or Goshiki-ish fry that was produced, so I don't think that it could have come from that crossing. We do see gray, yellow, red, brown ones though which I'm guessing is either the expression of a yellow/red color gene or lack of that gene, or something that is suppressing its expression. Not quite sure about the genetics side of things, but I suppose I could start by working on some Punnet squares to try and figure things out.

    The Yamabuki are a lot easier to pick out in the video, but they don't look like traditional Yamabuki yet. They will require some further work.
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

  4. #4
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Brian: You have observed "Some Karashi when small have and outline of faint sumi on the very edges of the fins, which resembles what you can see on Soragoi as well. It recedes over time but suggests that sumi exists in pretty uniform distribution and is only seen in areas that are thin, such as the tips of the fins, most notably the dorsal and tail fin. As the tissue grows and thickens, it's not visible anymore." Is it just "some", not most or all, Karashi that show the sumi edge? I am wondering if there are body color hues do not show the sumi edges. Can the sumi edges serve as a factor in early culling? I am so ignorant of Karashi breeding!

    Ochiba can show dark sumi edges along the step patterns and fins when young. Sometimes Goshiki have this trait. Until the sumi fades away, you cannot be sure what the fish will be like. It's sort of similar to 'baby sumi' on Sanke and Utsuri. It deceives the eye. What is seen in a young tosai goes away.

  5. #5
    Administrator Brian's Avatar
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    Hi Mike,

    I'm still on the far side of the learning curve of culling these as well, so not sure what the edge sumi means in terms of culling yet other than the higher amount when small, the more will be retained as the koi grows. The more bright yellow the karashi, the less it seems to have. The "cream" colored ones seem to have more.
    Brian Sousa
    Koi-Bito Forum

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