cross breeding- yamabuki x hajiro

[koinoob]

Hi guys,
i have been lurking around and trying to find an asnwer but unable to. i have read some of BB's, bindi, mikem and wayne1's post on breeding and its all very confusing.
seems like koi are mostly named after phenotypes and the genotypes are hard to pin down unless it has been bred for generations and you know the breeder.

I come from OZ as well and from what i understand we do not have access to great bloodlines either. I know some purists would say cross breeding pond mutts isn't going to be worthwhile but with limited stocks here in OZ its probably what we started with and slowly get better.

With that said my question is can a yamabuki ogon be bred with a doitsu hajiro? - i have read metallics shouldnt be bred with non metallics. i have also read karashigoi x yamabuki ogons yield jumbo yamabukis and read how koigrl has created a ki shisui with midori goi and crossing and back crossing etc

Is there a formula to breeding that people try to follow - or to set a goal for?

i know kois dont breed true but if thats the case what in peoples experiences breeds true-er ( rather than both parents from the same grouping) for that matter?

i dont even know the bloodline of my koi i just have a 50cm female yamabuki ogon and a 45cm doitsu male-looks like a hajiro- black koi with white pec fin tips, white head specks, white belly below the lateral. Would there be a chance of getting ki shisui with that? or doitsu yamabuki? or even karashigoi or kigoi? Hoping those with more experience can chip in on the complicated cross breeding topic.

[MikeM]

What is your goal? I think the best approach is to decide on a goal and then locate the parent fish available to you which are most likely to get you there. Using two parents just because you happen to have them makes for a lottery with a lot of work and expense for little hope of success. Without knowing a goal, it is not possible to cull to accomplish the goal. Success in koi breeding is all about the eye of the breeder making the thousands of culling decisions going through a spawn fish by fish at as small a size as possible.

If the goal is to have metallic offspring, then both parents should be metallic. Development of metallic koi focuses on using the most metallic to get the highest shine, while balancing that goal with body form. In a spawning of Yamabuki with Yamabuki, you get a lot of yellow metallic offspring, some more yellow than others; some more metallic than others; and many with all sorts of flaws. Despite the commonality of Yamabuki, it is not so easy to find one that has strong color, high shine at a large size and good body form. And, there will be many in the spawn that need culling due to lack of color, deformities and throwbacks.

Crossing with Doitsu adds another element; and crossing with Hajiro adds all sorts of unrefined genetics. The Yamabuki took a lot of patient refinement to get rid of darkening pigment. Hajiro adds dark pigment back to the mix. Maybe you could get something like a Kin Ki Utsuri?? ...low chance, I'd guess, and a ton of culls.

Since the hobby in Australia is all about breeding and development of varieties, there is a great deal of breeding knowledge in OZ. My suggestion is to check for nearby members of one of the koi organizations...the Australian Koi Association, Koi Society of Australia, Koi Society of Western Australia. They can give practical advice fitting your situation or direct you to some hobbyists who can.

[koinoob]

I was hoping to see what i could create and see if i could get a ki utsuri, or maybe yellow karasugoi and also if any would be good doitsu yamabuki's. Reading up on some yamabuki crosses it looks like i will try to keep just the doitsu's and see what happens as that will keep my numbers limited. As mentioned by BB if the oyagois are not both of the hikari types the sheen would be lackluster and unrefined. i will post my planned oyagois in abit as the pics are on my phone.

[MikeM]

Many years ago, Brady Brandwood undertook re-creating Ki Utsuri. He was trying to get better body form with a good yellow and quality sumi. Ki Utsuri are notoriously weak on all three counts. He went through a few generations before abandoning the project. (I think he stopped with the third generation, but really am uncertain.) He did not reveal what his plan. However, a few I saw looked to me like a cross of Yamabuki with Shiro Utsuri. ...Yamabuki for body form and yellow pigment; Shiro Utsuri for quality sumi. They were not great koi. They were similar to Ki Utsuri coming in from Japan, but seemed to me to have a hint of metallic when the light caught just right. My impression, which may be inaccurate, was that he obtained maybe a dozen or so passable Ki Utsuri after several years and probably a couple of million fry.

Probably the best of this sort of koi I see on dealer websites are Kin Ki Utsuri from Marusei. In the U.S. Champion Koi gets in a couple each year. I'm not so sure how they hold up when reaching 70cm. I've not seen any that large. Getting decent sumi on metallic koi is the big challenge seldom accomplished in the century of trying to breed such koi.

There is a tremendous amount of work involved in creating a variety, but I imagine the sense of accomplishment is tremendous if there is success after the 7-10 years it takes to create foundation stock. Good luck!

[koinoob]

I havent been able to find that thread or photos from that. I guess i can always go for a purachina x yamabuki which is the ideal - however i need to find a male one. Last night in the pond i can see that the hajiro is really interested in the yamabuki and keep edging up against her. its currently winter here in OZ so come september as the winter warms up i will need to set up my spawning tank. i will go and see who in the koi club may lend me a platinum male. otherwise this year just try with the hajiro. until i get a platinum ogon of age. my other shiro bekko didnt seem interested either nor my other kois.

[MikeM]

Your Yamabuki comes across in the photo as having very good color. I am wondering whether someone in the club has a Doitsu metallic of any sort. A Kikisui or Hariwake would give you a lot of metallic offspring with a variety of patterning and a range of color. Something very attractive could come out of that. If you have to use a non-metallic male, how about considering a Kohaku? There would be a range of degree of metallic, plus some patterning. These sorts of crosses would give you more bright colored offspring, while the one we are calling a Hajiro is going to lead to a high proportion of dark offspring. He may be the one interested in spawning now, but put mature males with a mature female in their own vat when the seasons change and nature takes its course.

[koinoob]

Thanks for the response mike. now i regret not getting the other 45cm white doitsu from the same owner that i got the hajiro from(he was downsizing to try spawning sanke and he had a few kumonryu growing). i was trying to keep my pond numbers at max 9 and wanted a black one for feng shui reasons. if i ever get a black female i would breed with the hajiro to make more black based fish. dont have a kohaku at the moment- the ones i have seen havent been nice in terms of body conformation and or step patterning and kiwa isnt as clean. will ask some of the club long timers in WA here at the next meeting if anyone would lend me something. i have found bindi's thread on creating the ki kumonryu and it definitely a journey- the F1 offspring was good but the yellow was still unrefined and speckled - so i guess i can leverage off that learning and definitely needs time for the F1 to grow then try on F2 and F3- definitely many many years before a good refinement may come along.

[koinoob]

Hi Mike,
Looks like the owner who sold me the black male still has his white male- pic attached- just a doitsu. whats your opinion on it being a parent? there are a couple of other potential metallic doitsu's i may be able to acquire i will post pic later

[koinoob]

here is another potential male- not sure regarding the age of these but i can ask the breeder if for a more mature fish otherwise.

[MikeM]

Well, I think it goes back to the question of what your goal is.

The Shusui-like male in post #8 is a neat koi. He reminds me of some of the unique koi Dr. Kuroki praised so much back in the 1960s. This sort was never established as a real variety despite names getting applied to them. When they were bred all sorts of offspring were produced, almost none of which were like the parents. You can think of it as a mutt that happened to turn out very attractive and interesting, but with mutt genes. He may seem 'white' compared to the Hajiro, but he is turning gray just as Shusui tend to do. I think he would be preferable over the Hajiro simply because he obviously carries some genes that dilute sumi, which I think gives a better chance of a higher proportion of offspring being bright/colorful. And, if you are looking for some Doitsu, you would have a chance of some offspring interesting enough that it would not seem such a chore to do the culling.... and getting some offspring worth taking up space.

The koi in post #9 display a wide variety of traits. There is both Doitsu and Wagoi. Some are solid white/silver, and one shows orange patterning. The one in the upper right seems the most pure in color and is Wagoi, while the one in the upper left is Doitsu and fairly clean. Others show hints of sumi coming up in the dorsal scales, suggesting matsuba. Some show some metallic qualities, but none seem strongly metallic in the photo. I'm guessing they come from related spawns. If so, they will all carry a background pool of all the traits you see, plus more.... quite different from what any one of them currently shows. If I had to choose from these, I would probably pick the one in the upper right corner simply because it is a cleaner fish. If I could pick two, I'd add the Doitsu in the upper left.

Mark Gardner has an interesting breeding project going on. His latest update is here: http://nishikigoi.life/2019/06/21/my...pawning-night/ . Check it out and it might give some ideas.