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Thread: confuse

  1. #1
    Tosai koiteen's Avatar
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    Unhappy confuse

    im confuse because i just read that koi were from eastern europe and Persia and i thought that they were from china that migrated to japan.

  2. #2
    Daihonmei aquitori's Avatar
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    I might be wrong, but Nishikigoi is a mix between Asian and European Carp. Maybe the others could elaborate more on this.

  3. #3
    Sansai Andrew's Avatar
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    The european 'input' is I believe the German leather carp, doitsu. This was introduced for it's ease of cleaning and preparing to cook.

    This long before farmers started playing and manipulating the breeding of oddly coloured carp which was the start of Nishikigoi as we know them today.
    Andrew

    "Gentlemen prefer ponds"

  4. #4
    Daihonmei dick benbow's Avatar
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    China developed the goldfish member of the carp family to include, changes in finnage, eyes, body shape...

    japan worked with the food species to take advantage of color opportunities to develop color varieties.In china red and black were all the rage. In japan came asagi and yamabuki and others.

    Germany got involved when the japanese became interested in the mirror carp. big scales along the sides. leather carp came later. When the japanese asked the germans what kind of carp were these meaning the mirror ones, they said
    Deutch translated "german"! The japanese not being able to get their mouth around the translation called it "douitsu", hence the name was "born" and understood. The first variety to take advantage of the mirror scales was the now popular shusui

  5. #5
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    Koiteen: I think there is general agreement that the ancestral carp from which koi arose can be traced back to Persia. .... very ancient Persia. The carp was spread as a food fish across Europe and Asia. In medieval times in Europe, they were kept in ponds at monasteries to supplement the diet of monks. The ancient Romans are known to have carried carp with them in military campaigns in Asia Minor. So, with carp being dispersed by people across wide areas, different populations of carp acquired different traits. I have always thought it interesting that the germanic and slavic peoples of Europe developed a food carp known for its bulk, and then scaleless ones easier to clean for cooking; while in China the colored carp arose among food carp. There are stories of colored carp being presented as special gifts to esteemed members of nobles' courts in ancient China, but it is not so clear that they were being kept as ornamental fish. Rather, they were probably eaten. .... sorta like choosing the piece of candy that has a different color? All the candy tastes the same, but the one that's different is special.

    Then as DickB explains, all those separated gene pools came back together when German carp were introduced into Japanese koi breeding. We think of globalization of the world economy as a new development of the 21st Century, but it has been a global economy for thousands of years. Modern communications just make it all happen so much more quickly now.

  6. #6
    Tosai JasonPoon's Avatar
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    I am not a professional in koi business.

    But I would like to clarify herewith colored carps (mainly gold~red colors) were rather an ornamental pet in ancient China, than serving as a food. Ancient Chinese experienced same development between goldfish and gold carp when red and gold colors represent elegancy and fortune in our belief and psychology.

    The gold carp was then spread to Persia via the Road of Silk and travelled over the sea to Japan after the Dynasty of Ch'in.

    I believe koi was found in China and then developed in Persia, Continental Europe and Japan.

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