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Thread: Karasugoi

  1. #41
    Daihonmei PapaBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGKIO View Post
    Thanks for the help. Way to make a new person feel welcome.

    Your just rude.
    Learn to laugh a little. Luke is that way with EVERYONE.
    He even insults himself sometimes just for the fun of it.

    Your first fish is a low grade Aka Matsuba with a very dirty (freckled) head.
    The second likewise has a dirty (smudged) head and a very poorly shaped body for Koi.

    Breeding 2 fish that carry the worst genetic traits for their recognizable variety will inevitably result in offspring with the worst of all worlds, hence the "diplomatic" initial responses you got from Mike and Bill. You can breed them if you like, or you can just take it from someone who has already been there, done that. I've picked my way through a tub full of ugly before and I'm just saving you a lot of disappointment and frustration by being honest with you.

    If you want to breed attractive fish you need to start with a good match of attractive parents of high quality, cull all but the best looking 10%, and then you still have to pray that 5% of them are better than fish bait.

    You can call it rude or call it real, but you can take it to the bank.
    Chose one and make the deposit.
    Larry Iles
    Oklahoma

  2. #42
    Daihonmei
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    pappa bear was being nice to me!!!!!!!!!!

    Now let me put it a plainer way....the two fish you have shown would be culls at any farm that did not sell koi by the pound. YES Cheap koi are sold by the pound.
    You could even breed those two and if you contacted the right person he would come in and take whatever you caught up...and he would pay you BY THE POUND ( $3/lb not $30/lb). then he would sell them to a major pet chain or wally world...
    The Koi you have posted show you know very little, and then to ask if they should be bred you showed you have some gumption, but even less knowledge...
    Koi do not breed well.
    Consider that you have been given a huge amount of knowledge by the members of this site, and for that you should be eternally grateful.
    or refuse the lesson and go waste alot of your time and money.
    Consider this.
    i have a 51,000 gallon concrete Koi pond in my backyard. I added African Cichlids to it two years ago just so they would eat all the fry when my fish spawn, And my fish are REAL koi. Most of em place at the major show I attend.

    If you really want to learn about koi you need to hook up with the local AKCA club, and then after a year or two try the ZNA club too.
    You knew so little about koi when you came in here that you think any fish you can give a name to is worth breeding....and that is a million miles from the truth.

    Don't ever breed the crap you have. it would be a complete waste of time and very disappointing for you within the year.
    Join a club

  3. #43
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I think there is some confusion. Neither of the koi posted are Karasugoi. They could be included in kawarigoi class at a show. Karasugoi are generally in the kawarigoi show class, but not all kawarigoi are Karasugoi.

    As Larry has stated, Karasugoi are a black koi. Some varieties within Karasugoi can have an orange belly. (It is usually a weak orange that would not be confused with red. It is not a desirable trait. It is an historically interesting trait, as one can see the trait blossom as a positive in Asagi.) Kawarigoi is a show classification for all koi not eligible to be entered in any other class established for the particular show. On rare occasion a show will establish a Karasugoi class for judging, but this is very rare. When I've seen reference to it, it has been because a special award for Karasugoi was being given. So, Karasugoi are typically placed in the catch-all kawarigoi class for judging. Other koi not having a judging class established for them likewise go into kawarigoi. The multitude of types going into kawarigoi do not have any essential connection to one another genetically.

    The reason I said the cross should not be done other than out of pure curiosity is because the two fish posted have little commonality. The combination would not lead to any predictable goal, but would be a random lottery out which just about anything is possible. There could even be a theoretical possibility of a GC quality Kohaku. Much more likely, by many thousand percent, is that the hundreds of thousands of fry would be unidentifiable mutts and you would need a few million gallons of water to have any hope of finding even a passable koi at the end of a year of hard work.

    If you are interested in doing some backyard breeding, please understand that you are very unlikely to have any worthwhile fish in the end, unless you begin with the best parents of the same variety that you can afford. It has to be an endeavor you enjoy for the adventure of it, not because there is a gem of a koi at the end of the rainbow. And, you have to be prepared to kill many thousands regularly. Being a heartless killer of koi is an essential characteristic of being a koi breeder. And, the more heartless, the more likely to be successful at it.

    I do not mean to suggest there is any moral basis on which to justify the creation of life for the intentional purpose of destroying it, but I nonetheless find it more acceptable when there is a thoughtful goal of self-education, or the creation of beauty that enriches. I see your proposed cross as not creating beauty, and thus in my mind only self-education can balance the necessary destruction of life created.

    If I have hurt your feelings, feel free to ignore me. But, stick around. You will learn things, and I am sure I will learn from you.

  4. #44
    Jumbo jnorth's Avatar
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    Hello GGKIO...um yeah people like to tell it like it is here. This might help you a little bit though. A quick search of the net yielded this link for you

    Koi Varieties - www.KoiAndPonds.com

    That has photos of the main recognized koi varieties. If your koi dont easily resemble any of them then they are simply pond koi. For lack of a better term you could call them mutts. Just like dogs a mutt crossed with a mutt makes another mutt. Lots of people have them (and there is nothing wrong with that)(I have a few myself) but they are not worth effort of breeding. If you really want to learn about the different varieties I would recommend the book "Koi Appreciation" by Kate McGill. Of course joining an AKCA or ZNA club is also a good idea...and yeah stick around here as I promise you'll learn a ton .
    Koi-Unit

    ZNA Potomac Koi Club

  5. #45
    Fry
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    akca club

    Hi GG Kio, yes there is a club in your area. Go to www.dallaskoikichi.org for information and newsletters. Our next meeting is December 6 and you are invited to attend.

  6. #46
    Jumbo azngopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mstrseed View Post
    No, I was being polite...........

    Karasugoi, is a black fish with a red belly.........

    There is a club in your area (Dallas Koi Kichi Club) and a few members on this board in the DFW area.........maybe Duc will be a bit more subtile..............
    Bill,

    Gigi lives down the road from me. I was going to visit her and her husband last weekend but got busy and couldn't make it. Will definitely go by soon to help her ID the koi.

    Duc

  7. #47
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    I've been trying to ID my koi for years and found this old thread.

    She is solid, laquer black with a metallic goldish red belly when she is in a black pond. In the brown mud pond, she turns the perfect Chagoi light brown with excellent reticulation and no red on her belly.

    I do not take great pics. LOL She is quite thick and 25.5".

    Would she be a Karasugoi?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    The views expressed above are my own personal views and, as such, do not necessarily reflect the views of the AKCA or the KHA program.
    SANDY

  8. #48
    Daihonmei MikeM's Avatar
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    I would group her with the karasugoi. That she changes color in the mud is very curious. I've not heard of so dramatic a change occurring. It makes me think of my Chagoi that is a golden tan when the water is in the 60sF, and dark (but not black) when the water is in the upper 70sF. But, my Chagoi just has darker/lighter variations on the brown color, nothing so dramatic as becoming black. That the color change tends to match the background is not surprising in itself. Koi with sumi tend to lighten when the background is light, and darken when the background is dark. But, again, so dramatic a change as to go from Chagoi brown to Karasugoi black is something I've not seen.

  9. #49
    Oyagoi kntry's Avatar
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    That's what has me puzzled, too, Mike.

    I take awful pics but here she is coming out of the mud. She was much fatter than the pic shows. I swear it's the same fish. LOL
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    The views expressed above are my own personal views and, as such, do not necessarily reflect the views of the AKCA or the KHA program.
    SANDY

  10. #50
    Oyagoi mrbradleybradley's Avatar
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    When first moved into the light tub, does the black contain any bronze tinge, only properly seen as a reflection in the light. I am thinking it does as this is something I see all the time and such koi will change as you describe. It is a different type of sumi in combination and never looks as super dark black as other karasugoi that do not change.

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